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Jaiga
09-16-2006, 11:28 PM
Now, I know that it might not matter to a lot of people what anime is classified as, and I don't really expect anyone here to care that much about it either, but I for one feel that it is disrespectful to refer to anime as a genre. This isn't merely because of the term itself, but what it implies about anime in general; that it is limited in its overall scope and is not the much broader entity it has actually become.

The main reason for my opinion on this matter is easily derived. If it were to be correctly called a genre, all anime would have to share some common characteristics, a certain style, or a general form. But no such constant exists in every single anime. A lot of people will disagree, saying that it does have common elements, like "saucer-shaped eyes" or giant robots. But, even disregarding the fact that such design details are ultimately superficial, the people who say this obviously either don't know much about anime or haven't been exposed to the many different types of anime that are out there.

Sure, I'd be the first to admit that many series and even movies tend to have a lot of recurring techniques, themes, and designs, but there are too many shows that differ substantially not only from each other, but from what people would normally consider as "typical" anime. I'd give anyone a free Nintendo Wii (or their joygasm equivalent) if they could find any similarities between Berserk and Fruits Basket, or Haibane Renmei and Digimon.

I bring this up mostly because it aggravates me to see the description for this board and the general use of "genre" whenever I happen to read a mainstream anime review. I know it's likely that most people use "genre" primarily because they don't know what else to call anime, since a more appropriate designation like "sub-medium" (considering animation as the overall medium) is not a commonplace term, but that doesn't make it acceptable to label something incorrectly. Giving a counterfactual classification to something is entirely misleading, and doesn't help anyone understand anything.

Anyway, I know that this post isn't going to really change much at all, but it was mostly just for me to vent my frustrations with far too much verbosity. Thanks for listening, if you made it this far. :)

Beyonce 3000
09-16-2006, 11:41 PM
Now, I know that it might not matter to a lot of people what anime is classified as, and I don't really expect anyone here to care that much about it either, but I for one feel that it is disrespectful to refer to anime as a genre. This isn't merely because of the term itself, but what it implies about anime in general; that it is limited in its overall scope and is not the much broader entity it has actually become.

The main reason for my opinion on this matter is easily derived. If it were to be correctly called a genre, all anime would have to share some common characteristics, a certain style, or a general form. But no such constant exists in every single anime. A lot of people will disagree, saying that it does have common elements, like "saucer-shaped eyes" or giant robots. But, even disregarding the fact that such design details are ultimately superficial, the people who say this obviously either don't know much about anime or haven't been exposed to the many different types of anime that are out there.

Sure, I'd be the first to admit that many series and even movies tend to have a lot of recurring techniques, themes, and designs, but there are too many shows that differ substantially not only from each other, but from what people would normally consider as "typical" anime. I'd give anyone a free Nintendo Wii (or their joygasm equivalent) if they could find any similarities between Berserk and Fruits Basket, or Haibane Renmei and Digimon.

I bring this up mostly because it aggravates me to see the description for this board and the general use of "genre" whenever I happen to read a mainstream anime review. I know it's likely that most people use "genre" primarily because they don't know what else to call anime, since a more appropriate designation like "sub-medium" (considering animation as the overall medium) is not a commonplace term, but that doesn't make it acceptable to label something incorrectly. Giving a counterfactual classification to something is entirely misleading, and doesn't help anyone understand anything.

Anyway, I know that this post isn't going to really change much at all, but it was mostly just for me to vent my frustrations with far too much verbosity. Thanks for listening, if you made it this far. :)
Feel better now?
Good.

*clears throat*
You're wrong.

Jaiga
09-16-2006, 11:52 PM
Care to provide any reasons, explanations, or supporting opinions? I respect your right to disagree, mate, but it doesn't look too good for you if you don't explain yourself. ;)

coolerimmortal
09-17-2006, 12:39 AM
Feel better now?
Good.

*clears throat*
You're wrong.
'Fraid he isn't. Anime is a medium, not a genre.

Oldboy Bebop
09-17-2006, 01:12 AM
Meh

Beyonce 3000
09-17-2006, 07:36 AM
'Fraid he isn't. Anime is a medium, not a genre.
Done?
You're wrong too.
But like, a different wrong.
That makes you wrong twice, actually.

Beyonce 3000
09-17-2006, 07:40 AM
Just so there's no controversy in my mind. I looked up the word "medium" of the 13 definitions (that a lot), none qualify. 1 you could maaaaaaaayyyyybbbbeeeee shoehorn anime into, but you'd be stretching.

Anime is a genre of film and a genre of television. It's a sub-genre of animation.
You can wax rhetorical and semantical alllll you want.

Me? I'm done here. Gonna watch a Megas XLR marathon.

Jaiga
09-17-2006, 10:57 AM
Both of the philosophy classes I had in college taught me that citing an authority, such as a person or text, without explaining why that authority corresponds to your position, makes your argument look flimsy. This is because it gives the appearance that you have no mental faculties of your own with which to process the information, which I'm sure isn't the case with you, ol' chum. But I'll respond anyway, just because I like discussing/debating.

I assume you're talking about the dictionary.com definition. Did you happen to miss this one?

7. one of the means or channels of general communication, information, or entertainment in society, as newspapers, radio, or television.

This seems like a perfect classification for animation, and I don't see how you could misconstrue it. Animation, and especially anime, has all the same genres as movies and television, and even some unique ones of its own ("magical girl," "giant robot"), and is, in general, a means of entertainment. How can a so-called sub-genre have different genres of its own? Come to think of it, even if it were true that animation cannot be labeled a medium, I haven't seen you give a good reason why it could be called a genre.

Even if you're talking about the physical medium, which I wasn't and this definition says nothing about, then although I admit that animation is mostly distributed on film since it's the most convenient avenue, animation cannot be a genre of film because it can exist without film. If you don't believe me, then take a couple pieces of paper, make some minutely changed drawings on each, and flip through them. That's animation.

Besides, if anime were a genre, then riddle me this: Why does it have it's own forum now here on Rotten Tomatoes? Are comic books also a genre of film? Just something to think about, ol chum. I don't really mean to be a prick about it or anything. It might not be that important, but it seems to me to be a flaw in the thoughts of most people that I just don't like.

Beyonce 3000
09-17-2006, 11:58 AM
Both of the philosophy classes I had in college taught me that citing an authority, such as a person or text, without explaining why that authority corresponds to your position, makes your argument look flimsy. This is because it gives the appearance that you have no mental faculties of your own with which to process the information, which I'm sure isn't the case with you, ol' chum. But I'll respond anyway, just because I like discussing/debating.

I assume you're talking about the dictionary.com definition. Did you happen to miss this one?

7. one of the means or channels of general communication, information, or entertainment in society, as newspapers, radio, or television.

This seems like a perfect classification for animation, and I don't see how you could misconstrue it. Animation, and especially anime, has all the same genres as movies and television, and even some unique ones of its own ("magical girl," "giant robot"), and is, in general, a means of entertainment. How can a so-called sub-genre have different genres of its own? Come to think of it, even if it were true that animation cannot be labeled a medium, I haven't seen you give a good reason why it could be called a genre.

Even if you're talking about the physical medium, which I wasn't and this definition says nothing about, then although I admit that animation is mostly distributed on film since it's the most convenient avenue, animation cannot be a genre of film because it can exist without film. If you don't believe me, then take a couple pieces of paper, make some minutely changed drawings on each, and flip through them. That's animation.

Besides, if anime were a genre, then riddle me this: Why does it have it's own forum now here on Rotten Tomatoes? Are comic books also a genre of film? Just something to think about, ol chum. I don't really mean to be a prick about it or anything. It might not be that important, but it seems to me to be a flaw in the thoughts of most people that I just don't like.
No.

whackedman
09-17-2006, 01:05 PM
Anime is a sub-genre of animation. First, it is Japanese. Second, it is Japanese. And lastly and most importantly, it is Japanese.

I know, it's complicated but if you sit back, relax and try not to think too hard, it all suddenly makes sense.

Jaiga
09-17-2006, 01:10 PM
You know, Beyonce, it doesn't make you look cool just by disagreeing with someone pointlessly. I wonder if you're just trying to rile me up or something. I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy, though, and an optimist to boot, so if that's the case then it won't be very effective.

I still would like to hear any real counter-argument you may have, since I honestly do enjoy intelligent discussion. Or if not, then happy cheese and buscuits to you, mate. :d

Jaiga
09-17-2006, 01:34 PM
Anime is a sub-genre of animation. First, it is Japanese. Second, it is Japanese. And lastly and most importantly, it is Japanese.I don't really get what you're saying. Japanese films is not a genre or sub-genre of films...so how does it make any more sense for animation?

I know, it's complicated but if you sit back, relax and try not to think too hard, it all suddenly makes sense.It's not really that complicated, seeing as how I already explained it. It seems to me that both you and Beyonce are just going off of what other people have said, because you apparently don't have arguments of your own. This makes me sad. I think we could all use a little bit more individual thought and effort put into what we say, don't you?

JackG2
09-17-2006, 01:43 PM
Anime is a sub-genre of animation. First, it is Japanese. Second, it is Japanese. And lastly and most importantly, it is Japanese.

Wait a second... but there's Chinese anime too.
:confused:

Fiend
09-17-2006, 02:39 PM
You can be cool or you can be anal about everything. I choose to be cool and think of 'Anime' as Animation which is what the word means in Japanese. "Anime" is an anglisized Japanese word meaning exactly that, Animation. Only non-Japanese people make it out to be something specifically Japanese and/or specifically Japanese Animation. It's just animation. A Japanese person would call Toy Story an Anime. They would call Finding Nemo Anime why? because it's animation which is the definition of 'Anime'.

Was that clear enough? :P

Anime is Animation. So if you consider 'Animation' a genre then Anime is. If you don't then it isn't. Anime itself has many genres like comedy, drama, hentai, etc. Can genres have genres? I personaly could care less how something is classified but in this case I think Animation is a medium and (logically) that makes Anime a medium since they are exactly the same thing.

Peace,

Fiend

Beyonce 3000
09-21-2006, 07:38 AM
You know, Beyonce, it doesn't make you look cool just by disagreeing with someone pointlessly. I wonder if you're just trying to rile me up or something. I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy, though, and an optimist to boot, so if that's the case then it won't be very effective.

I still would like to hear any real counter-argument you may have, since I honestly do enjoy intelligent discussion. Or if not, then happy cheese and buscuits to you, mate. :d
I'm not a big fan of "intelligent discussion".
I'm a big fan of The English Language. You can be exact or you can be vague with it, but you have to fall within it's acceptable limits based on the audience.

Your diatribe had holes in it that I cannot abide by.
Your definition of medium is soooooo stretching it. Communication?
My brother has a degree in Communication. You and I are communicating right now. Neither are art.

A Medium is GENERALLY regarded as the core elements of an artform or a vessel of conveyance. Clay is a medium used in sculpting, Acrylic paint is a medium used in painting. Newspapers are a medium for the conveyance of news and opinions. Rotten Tomatoes is a medium for discussion of film.

Anime is not a MEDIUM unless the person who creates an anime has intended it to be a medium of some sort.

It could have been intended to be a medium for expressing a viewpoint/philosophy, or something more personal. However, it would have to be express in the creator's intention.

You could suggest that DBZ was a medium to showcase the author's love of martial arts..

But you cannot rightfully describe the anime as Medium.
The paint, the cels, the cameras used to bring it to life? All medium.

"In what medium does an anime producer work" He works in paint, cels and camera.

I really don't have time for this.

I'm bored so I'm going to say again:
You're wrong.

Nice try, though.

Jaiga
09-21-2006, 06:58 PM
Not to be rude, dude, but I think you are completely missing the point of this topic. The title of this thread is "Anime is not a genre...", not "Anime is a medium." I barely even wrote a sentence about anime being a medium in my original statement, and it was not the point I was trying to make, which is that there is no way to get anime to fit the defintion of the word "genre." Whether or not it's a medium is moot in this regard. And you still have yet to provide any reason at all why anime could be called a genre.

This seems to be a classic case of a person not having an argument of his own, so he tries to find "flaws" with the other person's less important statements in order to cover up his own lack of insight. I mean, hey, it worked for Bush, right? But I will still reply, because, again, I like discussion.

I'm not a big fan of "intelligent discussion".
I'm a big fan of The English Language.Um, that's fine, I guess, but...

You can be exact or you can be vague with it, but you have to fall within it's acceptable limits based on the audience.
...what exactly does this sentence mean? I'm a little confused by it.

Your diatribe had holes in it that I cannot abide by.
Your definition of medium is soooooo stretching it. Communication?
My brother has a degree in Communication. You and I are communicating right now. Neither are art.Come on, you can do better than that. For one thing, do you really think that a couple paragraphs' worth of constructive criticism and plainly stated observations can be called a "diatribe"? I mean, wow. I'd hate for you to see one of my dad's furious tirades...:eek:

But more importantly, the definition I gave is from dictionary.com, and it says that a medium can be a means of communication, information, or entertainment. I pretty clearly said entertainment right afterwards, so I don't know why you brought up communication.

While we're on the subject, though (and even though it matters little to the general discussion), I agree that in most instances communication is not art, but I think that art can certainly be, or at least contain, communication. I mean, you even say it yourself later that art conveys things to people. Wouldn't you say that that's communication?

A Medium is GENERALLY regarded as the core elements of an artform or a vessel of conveyance. Clay is a medium used in sculpting, Acrylic paint is a medium used in painting. Newspapers are a medium for the conveyance of news and opinions. Rotten Tomatoes is a medium for discussion of film.I don't really see how you can somehow try to define the word medium further. We can both clearly see the definitions in any dictionary.

And I don't know what you're on about this "core elements of an artform" business, but the examples you give of it being a "vessel of conveyance" aren't even consistent with each other, let alone the overall idea of vessel-hood. I already dismissed physical mediums from any signicance, anyway, but for the sake of discussion, I'll accept that clay and newspapers can be called physical mediums, but not acrylic paint or Rotten Tomatoes.

A vessel must be something that contains, or moreover, carries something with it, and we would say that this something is on the vessel, like how people are on a boat. Sculpting is done on clay. News and opinions are printed on newspaper. But paint is not painted on paint; it's painted on a canvas, so that would be the medium.

And Rotten Tomatoes cannot be a medium because it's too specific. It's just an example of the overall medium of message boards, just like The New York Times is an example of a newspaper.

Anime is not a MEDIUM unless the person who creates an anime has intended it to be a medium of some sort.

It could have been intended to be a medium for expressing a viewpoint/philosophy, or something more personal. However, it would have to be express in the creator's intention.

You could suggest that DBZ was a medium to showcase the author's love of martial arts.. Where did you get this idea from? No definition of the word medium that I've ever seen has said that a medium is the specific creation of an artist, let alone that he would somehow have to slyly stamp "MEDIUM" on it for it to be one. A medium is something, according to its defintions, that applies broadly to a certain class or category or form, not to certain works.

But you cannot rightfully describe the anime as Medium.
The paint, the cels, the cameras used to bring it to life? All medium.

"In what medium does an anime producer work" He works in paint, cels and camera.

I really don't have time for this.

I'm bored so I'm going to say again:
You're wrong.

Nice try, though.So wait, you're saying that the medium of anime is not film? So you agree with me, and you'll admit that it can't be a genre of film then, right? Heh heh, I'm just kidding with you, my boy(wait, are you male or female?). Most animation is done digitally on computers nowadays, anyway, so like I said, the physical medium doesn't really matter.

What does matter though is that anime can be either a general means of entertainment, or it can fit under another definition for medium, which is that of "a mode of artistic expression" (Merriam-Webster Collegiate, Eleventh Edition). A "mode" according to the same dictionary is "a particular form or variety of something." This implies that it is a broad term covering many ideas and subjects, and it says nothing about creative intent.

One thing I wonder about is that you seem to be upset about this for some reason. Cheer up, mate. This discussion isn't that serious. And how can you say that you don't have time for this, but then say that you're bored. A little contradictory, don't ya think? But, you know, do get back to me again. If your arguments were actually to prove that I was wrong, I'd certainly admit it. But they haven't even come close as of yet. And saying things like "No" and "You're wrong" is pointless, and pretty much the defense of two-year-olds. Seriously, I have a two-year-old cousin, and that's what he says when he doesn't get his way. That little rascal. They call them the Terrible Twos. Such a handful...:D

Beyonce 3000
09-22-2006, 07:41 AM
Jaiga your an idiot. Worse, your a smug and resolute idiot. Thank you and have a nice day.

The One
09-22-2006, 07:52 AM
Jaiga your an idiot. Worse, your a smug and resolute idiot. Thank you and have a nice day.You really suck at arguing. He handed you your ass on a plater.

Just a little tip for future arguements. Saying "You're wrong" doesn't make you right. In fact he is right on all terms while you whistle dixie out of your ass.

Beyonce 3000
09-22-2006, 09:13 AM
You really suck at arguing. He handed you your ass on a plater.


Just a little tip for future arguements. Saying "You're wrong" doesn't make you right. In fact he is right on all terms while you whistle dixie out of your ass.


I really suck at arguing.. riiigggghhttt.

I'm supposed to sit here and debate with a child over semantics?
Not on my list of things to do.

He's wrong. It's ****ing simple and plain. Get a ****ing dictionary, get a ****ing film teacher.. genre and medium are not flexible enough to satisfy his stupid assertion.

Sorry.

Jaiga
09-22-2006, 04:39 PM
It's okay, The Nameless One. I won't hold it against him. This guy just seems like he's had a few too many sour apples. Also, Planescape: Torment is :fresh:.

I don't get it, though, Beyonce. With the way you're acting you'd think I was rubbing feces in your eyes or something. I'm not attacking you; I'm just disagreeing with you. People can disagree and still be good pals, you know. Nothing I said was intended to be even remotely derogatory, but if you seriously thought I was being smug or belittling you, then I apologize, because I really didn't mean it.

All I want is for you to give a reason, any reason at all, as to why anime can fit under the definition of "genre." Then I can at least take your position seriously. If you can't personally provide me with any legitimate response and can only tell me to go to other sources to find the answer, then it just proves your lack of understanding about the subject. And surely, for you to disagree so vehemently you must have some specific rationale that would counter everything I've already said up to this point, or so I assume. It's not that hard to type a few sentences about it, is it? Once you've done that, we can discuss it like rational human beings.

And if you don't happen to have that, then please stop bothering this topic with a viewpoint that has no support.

Beyonce 3000
09-22-2006, 06:39 PM
It's okay, The Nameless One. I won't hold it against him. This guy just seems like he's had a few too many sour apples. Also, Planescape: Torment is :fresh:.

I don't get it, though, Beyonce. With the way you're acting you'd think I was rubbing feces in your eyes or something. I'm not attacking you; I'm just disagreeing with you. People can disagree and still be good pals, you know. Nothing I said was intended to be even remotely derogatory, but if you seriously thought I was being smug or belittling you, then I apologize, because I really didn't mean it.

All I want is for you to give a reason, any reason at all, as to why anime can fit under the definition of "genre." Then I can at least take your position seriously. If you can't personally provide me with any legitimate response and can only tell me to go to other sources to find the answer, then it just proves your lack of understanding about the subject. And surely, for you to disagree so vehemently you must have some specific rationale that would counter everything I've already said up to this point, or so I assume. It's not that hard to type a few sentences about it, is it? Once you've done that, we can discuss it like rational human beings.

And if you don't happen to have that, then please stop bothering this topic with a viewpoint that has no support.
You're an idiot. Go argue with film school professors or something. I always love guys like you in a class... I bet you listen to All Things Considered and shower alone.

Anime is a genre, not a medium. Read a book.

Jaiga
09-22-2006, 08:32 PM
:D:D:D

That's pretty much all I have to say at this point. When someone starts claiming that you're an example of someone he knows (through the internets of all things) and brings out stupid joke-attacks to try to prove his utterly factless point, then it's time to call it quits. This has been a lovely argument, filled with butterscotch and pumpernickle and cream soda, and I have to concede that although you've failed superbly at justifying your ludicrous responses, you are definitely the king of all buttsecks in terms of gradeschool name-calling and verbal pooh-flinging. If anyone else has any actual concerns, or if you'll just stop being so immature, then we'll talk.

Maybe now I'll go listen to this All Things Considered you speak of. It must surely be a personal wellness tape of yours, which would explain why you have such a stellar personality. :up:

Let's be friends,
<3 - Me

Oh Daesu
09-22-2006, 09:29 PM
I believe Anime can be described as a genre.

genre

1.a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music.
3.genus; kind; sort; style.

anime

a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, and sexuality and violence.

This is just my interpretation. Perhaps others see it differently.

coolerimmortal
09-22-2006, 09:50 PM
I believe Anime can be described as a genre.

genre

1.a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music.
3.genus; kind; sort; style.

anime

a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, and sexuality and violence.

This is just my interpretation. Perhaps others see it differently.
That part invalidates the entire anime definition, and the "colorful" part is questionable as well (Jin-Roh?). That's like saying films are characterized by sexuality and violence. Some are, some aren't.

Also, Beyonce, you fail.

Oh Daesu
09-22-2006, 10:03 PM
That part invalidates the entire anime definition, and the "colorful" part is questionable as well (Jin-Roh?). That's like saying films are characterized by sexuality and violence. Some are, some aren't.

I don't think so. If I said that Anime was the Japanese style of animation that depicts leprechaun cross-dressers it wouldn't change the fact that it is a style that originated in Japan. I agree with you that "futuristic settings, and sexuality and violence" is a generalization but I wanted to give the entire description as I found it.

Jaiga
09-23-2006, 05:38 PM
Well, thanks Daesu, for at least being civil about it. I'll still have to tell you why I disagree with you, but afterwards we can have cookies. :cool:

Ah, yes, those dictionary definitions bring back memories, especially the one for anime. The first time I saw them was about, let's see...three years ago, give or take. That was back when even I still thought that anime was a genre, mostly because I heard lots of people (mainly film critics) say that it was. But even at the time, I knew there was something inherently flawed with the definition, because I had seen shows that didn't fit its description.

When I first started this topic, I knew from the get-go that this was the common dictionary defintion of anime. That's why I spent the second and third paragraphs of my opening remark dispelling that particular denotation of the word. But, in case you don't feel like scrolling up the page, I'll give you a refresher.

For as long as I've been watching anime, I have found that there is no single characteristic that can be applied to every anime that's out there. Yes, anime does have many visually stylized elements in a lot of (or you might even get away with saying most) shows, but there are enough atypical examples that it's still impossible to label all anime under one certain style.

But far more significantly, as far as important overarching literary characteristics within a show, there is little to no concurrency from one anime to the next. One series might be about humanity's increasingly dehumanized existence in the future; the next might be about the role of traditional Japanese family values in modern society; the next after that might be about nothing but the characters' everyday lives (meaning slice-of-life, ala Azumanga Daioh). Sure, there may be quite a few shows about dehumanized future existences, or futuristic shows that are somewhat similar, but that's what we would call a genre--a genre within anime, in this case.

I think the dictionary definition is especially off because, for some inexplicable reason, it attempts to define what anime is, rather than what it's supposed to define, which is the usage of the word. I don't know about you, but when I say I'm going to go watch anime, I don't mean to say that I'm going to watch a "style of Japanese cartoons with futuristic settings and sex and violence. Baby." Especially if I'm watching Ichigo Marshmellow. (You'll notice that the defintion even uses the word "and," not "or.") The bottom line is that the definition should read: "Japanese animation," or "Japanese animated cartoons," or something similar. That's what people who watch anime actually use the word for. The previous definition is used almost exclusively by those who lack an interest in and/or knowledge of anime as a whole.

The thing is, I personally would rather not have brought dictionaries into this discussion, but Beyonce wanted to play that way. And even then, I only used that train of thought to show him that even according to the definitions he brought up, anime (or actually, I think animation as a whole) could still fit under the the term "medium" as the dictionary reads it.

As a general rule, though, I don't believe in citing an authority as a way of arguing. Presidents are not gods. Laws are not always just. Dictionaries are not always correct. As far as I can tell, people have their own brains that can process information just fine. I think that if we don't use our own intellect to come up with our own answers and justifications and truths, then we might as well be subservient monkeys to the common dictatorial systems of the world.

In a sense, and like I said previously, I don't care as much about the terms like "genre" and "medium" (as the dictionary would define them in all their technicality) as I do the implications that their definitions and use has on anime in particular. Calling anime (or if you're going to be truly ridiculous, animation) a "genre" implies that it is limited to one specific way of being, and that a person who doesn't like one particular anime, like say, Cowboy Bebop, has seen all it's had to offer and so wouldn't be interested in any other shows, which is simply not true. The word "medium," though perhaps not ideal, is at least more accurate as it has a broader implication.


Sorry for making this reply so long-winded. It's a nasty habit that I must have picked up from my dad. But one more thing; here's an interesting link, also. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime#Genres) It's "just" a Wikipedia article, but still. I've increasingly found that Wikipedia, though it isn't professionally made, is often more accurate and informative than actual professional material, probably due to the fact that the articles are usually created by someone in the field of its subject matter, rather than people with second- and third-hand experience. It's not really part of my argument, but it is nice to have someone agree with you.

EDIT: This actually the right link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime) I wanted it to go to the top of the page. My apologies.

Oh Daesu
09-23-2006, 09:55 PM
Unfortunately, I don't believe we will be able to see eye to eye on this topic. I believe that it is important to have a common description for the words we use. Otherwise words would have different meanings for different people and communication would become useless. I'm not saying that anime should be described as a genre just that by definition it can be. I can see your point that the word genre may not fully encompass the scope of what anime is but the meanings of the words anime and genre that I have given, (meanings that are also given on Wikipedia), support the idea that anime can be described as a genre. I included the entire description because to not include the reference in whole would be considered creative editing, not to mention dishonest. As I said to coolerimmortal, I agree that most of the description provided for the word anime is flawed. However, the part that is accurate is that in the english speaking world anime is defined as animation of a Japanese style. That is the one characteristic that all anime have in common.

I do agree with you that having such a simplistic definition for the word anime will have some people watching one type of anime and dismissing it all if they don't like it. However, for the most part those type of people are the same type that need movies to explain every detail to them or else it is crap. One of the things I've learned over the years is that you cannot accept or deny anything until you have a complete understanding of it.

Fiend
09-24-2006, 01:26 AM
I believe Anime can be described as a genre.

genre

1.a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music.
3.genus; kind; sort; style.

anime

a Japanese style of motion-picture animation, characterized by highly stylized, colorful art, futuristic settings, and sexuality and violence.

This is just my interpretation. Perhaps others see it differently.Anime is not Japanese. It is not a Style. It's Animation wtf does everyone have a hard time understanding this? It's the anglisised word for Animation.
Also the definition of medium is clear:
(1) : a channel or system of communication, information, or entertainment -- compare (2) : a publication or broadcast that carries advertising (3) : a mode of artistic expression or communication

Fiend
09-24-2006, 01:30 AM
[QUOTE=Oh Daesu]

the part that is accurate is that in the english speaking world anime is defined as animation of a Japanese style. QUOTE]
No. Exactly wrong. To ignorant english speaking people perhaps. But they also pronounce 'Sake' and 'Karate' Saki and karati...

10 million ignorant americans doesn't make something right.

Jaiga
09-24-2006, 01:31 AM
Nah. I'm sure we can come to a common understanding somehow. Or at least, I can say a lot of things, and then you can kick my *** for being so verbose. In other words, it will all work out. :)

First of all, something important I've learned about language is that it's not as cut and dry as you would think. Words do have different meanings to different people. We don't even have to leave the topic at hand to find an example. The word "anime" in Japan is used to refer all animation throughtout the world, while in America, we refer to it as animation originating in Japan. Language is a fluid thing; we borrow words from other languages and twist them into something new; we change and rattle and rotate our own words into things the dictionary has never heard of; we add and subtract terms from our vocabulary as they slip in and out of usage. Language has evolved radically and continuously ever since its inception into human existence.

One incredibly common misconception I've come across is that people believe the dictionary tells us how to use words. As far as my knowledge extends about it, this is simply not the case. (And it sure as all heck doesn't define what something is.) A dictionary is just a mirror--a reflection of the way that we do use words. It changes every year, just as our language does. Meanings are rearranged and whole words are admitted or deleted. Dictionaries even sometimes have different interepretations of the usage of of the same word, and therefore disparate definitions.

Think about this. If we really wanted to, you and I could change the meaning of the word "hat." Afterall, "hat" is not the thing you put on your head. It's just a word we use to represent those cranium toppings. Wait, I thought of a better example (or maybe a better anecdote). Let's pretend we're going to change the word that we use to represent the thing we now call a "hat." I can take one of these head coverings, present it to you, and say that from now on, we're going to call it a "blorf." Now, once we've donned our newly minted blorfs, you and I can head out into the countryside and tell everybody to stop calling them "hats" and start calling them "blorfs." If the people aren't dismayed at the fact that we forgot to put on our groinks (which we had just switched to from "pants" this morning) and the term catches on, then the dictionary overlords will be forced to change the word for head coverings from "hat" to "blorf." That's how language works (though obviously in a far more subtle way), and it goes on all the time.

This has never made communication useless, though. Most of the words we'll ever learn in our lifetime we don't come to understand from the dictionary anyway. We understand them mainly through the implications of their use by other people. Even though a dictionary is handy and definitely useful for a reference as to the way people will likely perceive words, and I would certainly consider it an item important for someone to have (much as I'm sure you would), it's not something that is purely necessary for the comprehension of language.

But if the definition of a word happens to be wrong in the dictionary, according to the way people actually use it, then we have a right to call them on it. I don't see any way at all that the definition of anime can be even partially correct. Even if you chopped off the addendum on the back and just said "a Japanese style of animation," then you would logically have to ask the question, "A style characterized by what?" A style, according to its common usage at least (which can be comprehended easily from the definition), has to have specific characteristics, or it's not a style. Being "a style" itself is not a characteristic, and I already said that there is no common characteristic to every anime. And if it's not a style, I see no way it can fit under the definition you gave for genre.

This definition more than likely came about because the word anime is not very commonly used as of yet (some English dictionaries don't even have it), and unless there was someone with a healthy knowledge of anime working at the dictionary headquarters, they probably wouldn't understand all the things I've just explained about it. In fact, a lot of them more than likely just copied the definition from other dictionaries.

I don't disagree with you that we need to have a common understanding of the usage of words if we want to able to even debate about them, but that's what my argument is based on: use, and the implications of use, not on the dictionary defintion. If I can perceive the use of the word anime better than the dictionary people can, then why wouldn't you listen to me?
(Just something I have to add: I basically assume that the definition for genre is identical or nearly identical to its use.)

By the way, I can't figure out where this meaning for the word "anime" that corroborates yours is on Wikipedia. It flat-out says medium where I'm looking (I still think that animation would be the overall medium, with anime as something of a "sub-medium"). I edited my post to the link though, because I wanted it to go to the top of the page, and it didn't before for some reason. Sorry about that.

Jaiga
09-24-2006, 01:40 AM
Hey, you Fiend, you posted right before me. And you boiled almost everything I was saying down into like two sentences. :cool: Though I still say we use the word anime to denote Japanese animation, but only so that we have a word that can refer to it.

coolerimmortal
09-29-2006, 04:36 PM
Anime is not Japanese. It is not a Style. It's Animation wtf does everyone have a hard time understanding this? It's the anglisised word for Animation.That was its original meaning. Over time, however, it has come to refer to Japanese animation. The Japanese may refer to American animation as anime, but outside of Japan, Japanese animation is anime.