[dotdotdot]

Does Diane and the neighbour swapping apartments have any signficance? Why does she do it?
Where has Diane been for the few days (this is what the neighbour says to Betty and Rita in the dream) after she orders the hit on Camilla and before the dream?
If she had been hiding in the apartment, why does she answer the door when the neighbour comes knocking, isn’t she afraid that it’s the detectives?
When she comes to pick up the plates the neighbour says that the detectives have been looking for her AGAIN
– meaning she had told Diane about them once already and Diane had been avoiding them.
Incidentally the 3rd time I watched MD, I noticed the two detectives in a car outside the apartment just before Betty leaves for the audition. Also, the guys in dark glasses in the car outside Diane Selwyn's apartment - they must also be her fear/guilt of her crime catching up to her - intruding itself in her fantasy. Note the twist - Diane has projected her fear onto Rita - she is the one who is afraid not Betty.

[Dan Jardine]

Isn't in Diane's DREAM that the two have swapped apts?

In reality, it seems that the woman who appears to be Diane's ex (the hostility between them is tangible) is simply moving back into her old apt after the two have split up (perhaps because of Camilla? This could accentuate Diane's sense of failure--dumping the "girl next door" for Camilla, then getting dumped by Camilla herself), and she wants some of her stuff back that she moved into the apt while they were together.

[TBickle]

I agree with Dan that Diane and DeRosa (the neighbor) were in a relationship and DeRosa was coming back to get some of her stuff after a bad break up. My guess is that Diane was living with/dating DeRosa but was actually in love with and obsessing over Camilla.(Camilla does look like a glamourized version of DeRosa...). I think that Camilla was simply using Diane like a piece of meat (just like here grandparents...skip over to the sexual abuse thread for a TON of discussion about that) and just slept with her a few times. DeRosa found out and left Diane soon after Camilla dumped her to marry Adam. DeRosa is just another symbol of how dreary and depressing her reality was compared to the glamourized dream world (if you buy that DeRosa/Camilla look very similar)

[TBickle]

Dan Jardine wrote:

Isn't in Diane's DREAM that the two have swapped apts?

Yeah, that was in the dream that DeRosa said she switched apartments with Diane. It was when Betty and Rita went to her house that she said that. Also in that scene, DeRosa looked Rita up and down with a look of disgust. This would also play into the theory that DeRosa would be disgusted with Camilla in reality b/c she was the reason for her breakup with Diane.

[richdubbya]

One fly in the not swapping just moving out ointment is all the moving boxes that have yet to be unpacked.

[Dan Jardine]

Mebbe Diane's getting ready to make a run fer it!

[richdubbya]

Hey, you got me there! Though I don't think you can take a carry on where she's going.

[Rusty Nail]

As Ricard says, clearly Diane has stuff in boxes. And DeRosa has dishes that she came back to get. So it seems that they did switch apartments. My theory has been that Diane wanted to switch in order to avoid the law (i.e., the detectives).

[dotdotdot]

Originally posted by Rusty Nail
As Ricard says, clearly Diane has stuff in boxes. And DeRosa has dishes that she came back to get. So it seems that they did switch apartments. My theory has been that Diane wanted to switch in order to avoid the law (i.e., the detectives).

But, that means she knew she was going to have Camilla killed while she was having the affair with her, since the scene where they get it on , on the couch, is in the post-switch apartment...

[Four Stars]

Originally posted by dotdotdot


But, that means she knew she was going to have Camilla killed while she was having the affair with her, since the scene where they get it on , on the couch, is in the post-switch apartment...

Nice logic.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally posted by dotdotdot
But, that means she knew she was going to have Camilla killed while she was having the affair with her, since the scene where they get it on , on the couch, is in the post-switch apartment...

No it isn't. The second love scene is a flashback. Diane and Camilla appear brightly lit, against a crummy, real-life background. The background clearly is not part of the flashback. In other words, the boxes in the background are not part of the flashback, just like the kitchen was not part of the flashback when Diane saw Camilla there. See the movie again.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally posted by Four Stars
Nice logic.

No it isn't. Based on the lighting, the apartment and boxes in the backgound clearly are not part of the flashback. Diane and Camilla are part of the flashback, as is the coffee table. But the apartment simply serves as real-life background, not part of the flashback. We covered this several times in other threads.

For example, suppose that I am sitting in my backyard and I have a flashback. I see a Viet-Cong soldier running up the hill in my backyard with a rifle. The "nice logic" that you refer to means that I must have fought the VietNamese in my backyard. Wrong logic, wrong conclusion.

[richdubbya]

I think Diane changed to a less expensive (crummy) apartment because she used most of her money for the hit and was not going to get anymore bit parts from Camilla. I think this move being fresh on her mind created the nice apt at 1612 Havenhurst. This financial situation was just another nail in her coffin.

[Four Stars]

Originally posted by Rusty Nail

No it isn't. Based on the lighting, the apartment and boxes in the backgound clearly are not part of the flashback. Diane and Camilla are part of the flashback, as is the coffee table. But the apartment simply serves as real-life background, not part of the flashback. We covered this several times in other threads.

For example, suppose that I am sitting in my backyard and I have a flashback. I see a Viet-Cong soldier running up the hill in my backyard with a rifle. The "nice logic" that you refer to means that I must have fought the VietNamese in my backyard. Wrong logic, wrong conclusion.

Wow, I didn't get that at all from that scene. Lynch deliberately shows the DeRosa ashtray to let us know it is a flashback, but this also seems (to me at least) to set the scene at Diane's apartment. I'll have to search the other threads you mention for the reasons why this would not be the case.

It get what you mean about the flashback technique, I just don't see that it was used in this case.

[Four Stars]

Originally posted by Rusty Nail
As Ricard says, clearly Diane has stuff in boxes. And DeRosa has dishes that she came back to get. So it seems that they did switch apartments. My theory has been that Diane wanted to switch in order to avoid the law (i.e., the detectives).

Rusty,

I found your comments on the apartment switch and the ashtray in the "was Diane sexually abused?" thread. Your theory of the flashback technique helps explain the timeline issues but have you considered the possibility that Diane never really switched apartments at all?

The only reference to the switch occurs in the dream so we certainly can't take it as gospel. Moving is a major pain so I find it unlikely that DeRosa would be willing to switch apartments with someone she just broke up with. And if Diane is trying to hide from the cops, then living in her ex-lover's apartment just five doors down is not exactly a great plan. Even Deputy Andy Brennan from Twin Peaks could have figured that out.

I think is most likely that DeRosa was living with Diane in # 17. That's why her dishes and lamp (and ashtray) are in Diane's apartment. When they broke up DeRosa moved back to her old apartment which may or may not be in the same complex.

I know DeRosa makes the comment, "Those detectives were looking for you again" which seems to indicate that they came to # 12 looking for Diane there, but that assumes that DeRosa actually lives in # 12. But this could have happened at a number of other places - on a set for example - especially if DeRosa is in the business as well (most likely a grip! ).

In the dream DeRosa tells Rita and Betty of the apartment switch and says, "She (Diane) hasn't been around for awhile" as she looks at Rita/Camilla with disdain. Maybe "the switch" refers to Diane switching from DeRosa to Camilla.

As for the boxes in the apartment: maybe Diane never completely unpacked since moving from Deep River or wherever she moved from "this time". In my younger days my career took me to several cities year after year. It got to the point where I didn't always unpack everything.

Whatever. More grist for the mill.

[dotdotdot]

Originally posted by Four Stars


The only reference to the switch occurs in the dream so we certainly can't take it as gospel. Moving is a major pain so I find it unlikely that DeRosa would be willing to switch apartments with someone she just broke up with. And if Diane is trying to hide from the cops, then living in her ex-lover's apartment just five doors down is not exactly a great plan. Even Deputy Andy Brennan from Twin Peaks could have figured that out.

I think is most likely that DeRosa was living with Diane in # 17. That's why her dishes and lamp (and ashtray) are in Diane's apartment. When they broke up DeRosa moved back to her old apartment which may or may not be in the same complex.

I know DeRosa makes the comment, "Those detectives were looking for you again" which seems to indicate that they came to # 12 looking for Diane there, but that assumes that DeRosa actually lives in # 12. But this could have happened at a number of other places - on a set for example - especially if DeRosa is in the business as well (most likely a grip! ).

In the dream DeRosa tells Rita and Betty of the apartment switch and says, "She (Diane) hasn't been around for awhile" as she looks at Rita/Camilla with disdain. Maybe "the switch" refers to Diane switching from DeRosa to Camilla.

As for the boxes in the apartment: maybe Diane never completely unpacked since moving from Deep River or wherever she moved from "this time". In my younger days my career took me to several cities year after year. It got to the point where I didn't always unpack everything.

That's a good explanation, Four Stars.

I always assumed that the flash back in Diane's apartment wasn't in her mind/memory, but it was more of a flash back to earlier events that occured in reality.

I will have to check this the next time I see the movie, but the foreground (the couch and the coffee table) didn't appear to me any brighter than the packing boxes in the background.

DeRosa could be a grip ... do grips typically look like her, i.e. plain ?

[Leo]

My theory is that Camilla/Rita is an idealised image of DeRosa:


Note Camilla suddenly appears just after DeRosa leaves with stuff left in Diane's flat.

DeRosa makes a point of taking the ashtray - yet it is there again when the two are making love - indicating this is before the two split up.

Diane as a film actress doesn't hold true - she seems significantly less attractive
than both Betty and the Diane-as-actress seen on the film set at the scene with the director and Camilla in the car.

The blue key could then represent her lover returning the key to her home which is then metamorphosed into a more potent symbol during the dream reality. The blue key represents the relationship's end - changed first into a key representing the murder of her lover (a fantasised revenge act) and then a further step into the stylised blue key which helps return this lover to her. The fantasy falls apart when she imagines it being used (to open a blue box - a clever piece of sexual imagery) as she is thrust into a series of bitter fantasy memories of their relationship splitting up.

Note also how the neighbour has to answer the phone when Betty and Rita arrive - throughout the movie the phone is a constant reference point - often nobody answers.

Another obvious link between Camilla/Rita and DeRosa are that they are both brunette. However whilst Rita/Camilla is always immaculate (even having perfect lipstick even after showering or sleeping) the neighbour is pointedly unmade up - like Diane but unlike her alter-ego's Betty and actress Diane.

Finally (and for me this is the kicker) DeRosa comes to pick up her stuff in BOXES - and its the blue box which is one of the movie's key symbols. What if the boxes are represented by the blue box in the dream. Rita unlocking the box alludes to DeRosa taking her boxes back...

I've only seen the movie once and have read loads of threads. Either Lynch is a genius or we're all reading far too much into it

[Dan Jardine]

Well, if your theory holds up Leo, that means that Diane has one helluva dreamlife, as it has only the most nebulous of connections to reality. What your interpretation does, however, is suggest that Diane is even more fucked up than we thought, as she has flashbacks in her waking life to a person (Camilla/Rita) who doesn't actually exist, while it also implies that the gap between Diane's real and fantasy life is even greater than we thought (as in, she's probably never even been on a movie set, nevermind found bit part work in Camilla's films).

[Rusty Nail]

Originally posted by Four Stars
Wow, I didn't get that at all from that scene. Lynch deliberately shows the DeRosa ashtray to let us know it is a flashback, but this also seems (to me at least) to set the scene at Diane's apartment. I'll have to search the other threads you mention for the reasons why this would not be the case.

It get what you mean about the flashback technique, I just don't see that it was used in this case.

The coffee table and the items on it (including the drink and the ashtray) are shown in the same vivid color as Diane and Camilla. Therefore, they are part of the flashback. But the rest of the apartment is merely dingy background.

The ashtray indicates time rather than location.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally posted by Four Stars
I know DeRosa makes the comment, "Those detectives were looking for you again" which seems to indicate that they came to # 12 looking for Diane there, but that assumes that DeRosa actually lives in # 12. But this could have happened at a number of other places - on a set for example - especially if DeRosa is in the business as well (most likely a grip! ).

I think DeRosa's reference to the deteictives coming around is a clue for us to use, not to try and discount via alternative, hypothetical explanations. Just about anything in the movie could be discounted in that manner.

Originally posted by Four Stars
In the dream DeRosa tells Rita and Betty of the apartment switch and says, "She (Diane) hasn't been around for awhile" as she looks at Rita/Camilla with disdain. Maybe "the switch" refers to Diane switching from DeRosa to Camilla.

Again, I think that we are supposed to look for the clues rather than fight them when they hit us smack dab in the face.

Originally posted by Four Stars
As for the boxes in the apartment: maybe Diane never completely unpacked since moving from Deep River or wherever she moved from "this time". In my younger days my career took me to several cities year after year. It got to the point where I didn't always unpack everything.

I think that the unpacked boxes are there for a reason, not just to confuse us into thinking that Diane has switched apartments.

In summary, I really don't think that Lynch needs to resort to a bunch of red herrings in order to confuse us. That would be a mean thing for him to do in a film like this. Also, I believe that it would have detracted from the artistry of the film.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally posted by Dan Jardine
Well, if your theory holds up Leo, that means that Diane has one helluva dreamlife, as it has only the most nebulous of connections to reality. What your interpretation does, however, is suggest that Diane is even more fucked up than we thought, as she has flashbacks in her waking life to a person (Camilla/Rita) who doesn't actually exist, while it also implies that the gap between Diane's real and fantasy life is even greater than we thought (as in, she's probably never even been on a movie set, nevermind found bit part work in Camilla's films).

Not to mention that the kissing scene in the convertible, the pool party, and the Winkies scene with the hitman would not be real either. Also Adam, Adam's wife, the pool man, Coco, Bob Booker and The Sylvia North Story would not exist. And don't even ask me what happened to all that money.

[Four Stars]

Rusty, I'm a big fan, but I think you're off a bit on this one.

Originally posted by Rusty Nail

In summary, I really don't think that Lynch needs to resort to a bunch of red herrings in order to confuse us. That would be a mean thing for him to do in a film like this. Also, I believe that it would have detracted from the artistry of the film.

But you think it's ok for him to present a flashback that appears to be in one apartment but was actually in another? And do it such a way that you - and from what I can tell - only you are able to discern the difference?

Take your first example:

Originally posted by Rusty Nail
For example, suppose that I am sitting in my backyard and I have a flashback. I see a Viet-Cong soldier running up the hill in my backyard with a rifle. The "nice logic" that you refer to means that I must have fought the VietNamese in my backyard. Wrong logic, wrong conclusion.

This makes sense because we know our surroundings, it's our backyard. But what if we have this flashback on a hill in Thailand, or Hawaii? Is it clear to the audience that this attack actually took place in Viet Nam?

Originally posted by Rusty Nail
I think DeRosa's reference to the deteictives coming around is a clue for us to use, not to try and discount via alternative, hypothetical explanations. Just about anything in the movie could be discounted in that manner.

This is the way I feel about the ashtray. Why not just assume that the ashtray is emphasized to give us time and place rather than explain it away by the selective flashback contents theory.

Or, as you put it:

Originally posted by Rusty Nail
Again, I think that we are supposed to look for the clues rather than fight them when they hit us smack dab in the face.

And another thing...

I included the DeRosa comments about the cops only as a preemptory rebuttal (note to self: never do that again!). That part of the theory is not important. And you're right - just about anything in the movie can be discounted. But what about the following point, and please excuse me quoting myself:

Originally posted by somebody who doesn't know any better than argue with Rusty Nail
The only reference to the switch occurs in the dream so we certainly can't take it as gospel. Moving is a major pain so I find it unlikely that DeRosa would be willing to switch apartments with someone she just broke up with. And if Diane is trying to hide from the cops, then living in her ex-lover's apartment just five doors down is not exactly a great plan. Even Deputy Andy Brennan from Twin Peaks could have figured that out.

I only mention this because it just bugs me and because I want it to bug you too. And frankly, that's what this thread is about. Not about bugging you - that's just an ancillary benefit - no, dotdotdot was wondering about the apartment switch and whether it had any significance.

Love you Rusty, I'm still a newbie, but let me have it!

[richdubbya]

I don't believe the DeRosa and Diane connection because there is only slight annoyance in the way they treat each other. DeRosa because she wants her stuff and Diane because she just wants to get rid of her. If you watch them closely there is no anger or resentment or any other strong emotion that at least one of them would have had if they had a breakup. Are you guys saying that Diane killed herself over DeRosa moving out? This scene shows Diane annoyed that DeRosa is there bothering her. I think that the scene with Rita, Betty and DeRosa at the door of #12 was something in the pilot that would have been developed later. Remember in the pilot Diane Selwyn was shotgunned to death and Betty was not going to become Diane. Lynch used DeRosa getting her stuff to let us know the dream was over and Betty was now Diane (she says her name several times) and to setup the flashback with the ashtray.

[Bananna]

I have to agree with Richdubbya, here --

Just because there are a ton of red herrings and a hotel's worth of room for conjecture in this story doesn't mean there are not a few things that can and should be taken at face value.

Diane just used all her money to hire a hit on someone. That doesn't leave much pocket change for security deposits for new apartments. I do think that as a desperate (and cheap) measure she might have swapped apartments with DeRosa just to buy time. They might have been roomies, but I don't think they had a relationship beyond that nature, and maybe had an argument and one of them moved out to a different apartment.

As for the comments that Diane wasn't pretty enough to be an actress and DeRosa could have only been a grip -- well, not all actresses are beautiful. Think Thelma Ritter. Think Nell Carter. Think Roseanne Barr-Arnold-Barr whatever. Think half the cast of any year of SNL, past or present.

Diane was still pretty - she just looked hardened and defeated.

[richdubbya]

I think the question of DeRosa looking good enough to be an actor is pretty much proven because she is in the film. Actors come in all styles, shapes and sizes. But seriously folks the Rita/Camilla is symbolic for DeRosa theory has one or maybe two slight hints going for it and about 90% of the film against it.

[dotdotdot]

Originally posted by Bananna

As for the comments that Diane wasn't pretty enough to be an actress and DeRosa could have only been a grip -- well, not all actresses are beautiful. Think Thelma Ritter. Think Nell Carter. Think Roseanne Barr-Arnold-Barr whatever. Think half the cast of any year of SNL, past or present.

Diane was still pretty - she just looked hardened and defeated.

Naomi did a great job playing both Betty and Diane. From seeing her interview on the web her personality seems to be much closer to Betty (or maybe that was just her mood on the day).
Someone mentioned before that everything about Diane - her posture, voice and facial expressions reflected someone bitter and defeated. I even noticed that Diane is made up with yellowed teeth in a scene while Betty has pearly whites. I think she deserves an Oscar for Best Actress.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally posted by Four Stars
But you think it's ok for him to present a flashback that appears to be in one apartment but was actually in another? And do it such a way that you - and from what I can tell - only you are able to discern the difference?

It's not just me. Richard said:

"I think Diane changed to a less expensive (crummy) apartment because she used most of her money for the hit and was not going to get anymore bit parts from Camilla."

That means the apartment-switch happened after the hit was ordered. But how could it have happened after the hit if Camilla was still alive after the switch -- as evidenced by the boxes in the background? Or did the love scene happen after the hit was ordered but before it was carried out?

Answer: No. The lighting clearly shows the boxes to be part of the real-life background.

Originally posted by Four Stars
This makes sense because we know our surroundings, it's our backyard. But what if we have this flashback on a hill in Thailand, or Hawaii? Is it clear to the audience that this attack actually took place in Viet Nam?

The entire movie takes place in Diane's apartment. The love scene on the sofa takes place right after the hallucination of Camilla in the kitchen. Later, there is another hallucination at the door. Connect the dots.

Originally posted by Four Stars
Why not just assume that the ashtray is emphasized to give us time and place rather than explain it away by the selective flashback contents theory.

I am not explaining anything away. Clearly, the ashtray was there during the love scene on the sofa.

The clues for the apartment switch do not occur only in the dream. DeRosa comes over after Diane wakes up to get her stuff. This is the same "stuff" that DeRosa had just referred to in Diane's dream. The boxes are there. Connect the dots.

[Bananna]

Do you really believe, Rusty, the ENTIRE movie takes place in Diane's apartment? I want to hear the basis for that thought. If you've written it elsewhere, please direct me to it.

[Four Stars]

Originally posted by Rusty Nail
Connect the dots.

Well Rusty I guess that ends the debate. I disagree with your theory and I'm amused by your condescending tone.

I'm reminded of the scene in Broadcast News when the Holly Hunter character is asked a rhetorical question, "It must be nice to think you're always the smartest person in the room," and she answers, "No, it's terrible."

I haven't read all of your 800+ posts but I think you are one of the smartest people in this room. A little more civility would be nice.

[Chasper]

RustyNail,

If the entire movie takes place in Diane's apartment, then she never hires the hitman at Winkies? She never goes to the party at Adam's on Mulholland?

Or is this your way of saying that these, as well as the movie scene that Diane watches with Adam and Camilla , were just flashback thoughts of Diane while sitting in the apartment? I think we all know that by now.