[metropolis]

I saw The Dark Knight Rises for a second time this evening and enjoyed it very much indeed.

A few notes:

1. The two fight scenes between Batman and Bane were magnificent. The first one was extremely disturbing and felt more like an execution: I loved the absence of music, Bane's comments and the passivity of his henchmen, knowing that his boss was always in complete control.

2. The final scene at the cafe, was it just Alfred's dream or was it real? If it was real and he knew Wayne was still alive, then his behaviour at the funeral makes no sense.

3. Why did Bane say he gave the detonator to an anonymous gothamite? I didn't get that one.

4. And now the cliché: when Wayne and Blake first meet and talk about Batman's identity, Wayne turns his back to Blake. Why do movie characters do that everytime they have something important to say?

[rocknblues81]

Originally Posted by metropolis

4. And now the cliché: when Wayne and Blake first meet and talk about Batman's identity, Wayne turns his back to Blake. Why do movie characters do that everytime they have something important to say?

They do that in soaps also.

[manofaiki]

Originally Posted by metropolis

I saw The Dark Knight Rises for a second time this evening and enjoyed it very much indeed.

A few notes:

1. The two fight scenes between Batman and Bane were magnificent. The first one was extremely disturbing and felt more like an execution: I loved the absence of music, Bane's comments and the passivity of his henchmen, knowing that his boss was always in complete control.

2. The final scene at the cafe, was it just Alfred's dream or was it real? If it was real and he knew Wayne was still alive, then his behaviour at the funeral makes no sense.

3. Why did Bane say he gave the detonator to an anonymous gothamite? I didn't get that one.

4. And now the cliché: when Wayne and Blake first meet and talk about Batman's identity, Wayne turns his back to Blake. Why do movie characters do that everytime they have something important to say?

It was real. They show several tipoffs that Bruce is still alive. The 'auto pilot' on the The Bat flying machine having been fixed after all, that was a pretty strong clue.

Oh and did you notice the woman sitting with Bruce at the table at the cafe was Selina Kyle?

[Meow Skywalker]

Originally Posted by metropolis

I saw The Dark Knight Rises for a second time this evening and enjoyed it very much indeed.

A few notes:

1. The two fight scenes between Batman and Bane were magnificent. The first one was extremely disturbing and felt more like an execution: I loved the absence of music, Bane's comments and the passivity of his henchmen, knowing that his boss was always in complete control.

Thing that bugs me, he outs Batman's secret identity in front of dozens of witnesses. Not one of those guys spilled the beans? I know at the point they were all League of Shadows and were used to keeping secrets, but still, you'd think at least one of them would have said "Hey, I totally know who Batman was."

Speaking of the League of Shadows, doesn't anyone think it's weird that Alfred knows all about their inner workings? Secret organization exists for 2000 years without anyone knowing about it, but Alfred googles "Bane" and finds out that he was excommunicated from that group.

2. The final scene at the cafe, was it just Alfred's dream or was it real? If it was real and he knew Wayne was still alive, then his behaviour at the funeral makes no sense.

The funeral was before he saw Bruce Wayne alive again. It's not Memento, it wasn't played out of order. He thought Bruce was dead, then Bruce revealed that he was alive again with the cafe thing they talked about earlier.

Better question, why does Bruce bother telling those folks that he's dead? He could have just said "Alfred was right, I am done with this Batman ****. Blake, you take over. I'm gonna get rid of this bomb, tell everyone I died." Instead he tells all four of them that he's going to his death, then turns around and reveals the truth to all four of them. What a fantastic waste of everyone's time and emotions. It only exists to fool the audience, and that bugs.

3. Why did Bane say he gave the detonator to an anonymous gothamite? I didn't get that one.

So the cops wouldn't just shoot him. They couldn't risk attacking Bane if someone else would set off the bomb anyway.

My favorite bit is when they're like "We've only got hours until the bomb goes off! Every second counts!" And then Batman chooses to spend a couple of those precious hours spraying a flammable Bat symbol on the brige.

[metropolis]

Originally Posted by Meow Skywalker

Thing that bugs me, he outs Batman's secret identity in front of dozens of witnesses. Not one of those guys spilled the beans? I know at the point they were all League of Shadows and were used to keeping secrets, but still, you'd think at least one of them would have said "Hey, I totally know who Batman was."

Speaking of the League of Shadows, doesn't anyone think it's weird that Alfred knows all about their inner workings? Secret organization exists for 2000 years without anyone knowing about it, but Alfred googles "Bane" and finds out that he was excommunicated from that group....

I loved it when he told Bruce that Bane was stronger and he couldn't beat him. Again, he was right and acted like the voice of reason.

[Monsieur Red]

Ra's al Ghul operated in secret. I got the impression that Bane's "League of Shadows" was out in the open and a well known threat. Hell, the CIA knew about Bane's exploits.

[The Dark Focker Rises]

Originally Posted by Meow Skywalker

Thing that bugs me, he outs Batman's secret identity in front of dozens of witnesses. Not one of those guys spilled the beans? I know at the point they were all League of Shadows and were used to keeping secrets, but still, you'd think at least one of them would have said "Hey, I totally know who Batman was.

These are murderous psychopaths. Who would believe them?

Speaking of the League of Shadows, doesn't anyone think it's weird that Alfred knows all about their inner workings? Secret organization exists for 2000 years without anyone knowing about it, but Alfred googles "Bane" and finds out that he was excommunicated from that group

Who said he "googled" them?

Better question, why does Bruce bother telling those folks that he's dead?

Bruce didn't tell people he was dead. How could you tell someone you are dead? As a ghost?

He could have just said "Alfred was right, I am done with this Batman****. Blake, you take over. I'm gonna get rid of this bomb, tell everyone I died." Instead he tells all four of them that he's going to his death, then turns around and reveals the truth to all four of them. What a fantastic waste of everyone's time and emotions. It only exists to fool the audience, and that bugs me.

All he says is "No, autopilot." He doesn't tell Blake anything other than to thank him later. Alfred is not a part of the film when the climax occurs. And he reveals to Gordon who Batman is. But Gordon thinks he's dead after the bomb goes off. Right?

My favorite bit is when they're like "We've only got hours until the bomb goes off! Every second counts!" And then Batman chooses to spend a couple of those precious hours spraying a flammable Bat symbol on the brige.

This would not have taken hours. The scene is meant to symbolize that Batman has returned. The Phoenix rising, the ability to be reborn from the ashes. This ties in with Batman's desire to make the symbol of Batman immortal and incorruptible. Batman, being initiated, is all about theatricality and deception. This was theatricality. And you see how it unnerved Bane.

[The Dark Focker Rises]

Originally Posted by metropolis

I loved it when he told Bruce that Bane was stronger and he couldn't beat him. Again, he was right and acted like the voice of reason.

Alfred was proven wrong after Batman was reborn, and came back and defeated Bane hand-to-hand. The only reason Bane gains the upper hand on Batman again is that Talia/Miranda stabs him.

[Impavido]

(Films - Themes + racial stereotypes)*Explosions + hot chick = Michael Bay

[JeetKuneDo]

Originally Posted by Meow Skywalker

Better question, why does Bruce bother telling those folks that he's dead? He could have just said "Alfred was right, I am done with this Batman ****. Blake, you take over. I'm gonna get rid of this bomb, tell everyone I died." Instead he tells all four of them that he's going to his death, then turns around and reveals the truth to all four of them. What a fantastic waste of everyone's time and emotions. It only exists to fool the audience, and that bugs.

I noticed that too. He went to a lot of trouble to make it seem like he died and then let those four know he didn't die later. Would have been much less douchey to just let them in on it from the beginning.

But hey...movies gotta do illogical things sometimes to entertain.

[metropolis]

Originally Posted by JeetKuneDo

I noticed that too. He went to a lot of trouble to make it seem like he died and then let those four know he didn't die later. Would have been much less douchey to just let them in on it from the beginning.

But hey...movies gotta do illogical things sometimes to entertain.

Well, he wanted everyone to believe he was dead and ensure a happy retirement, so it doesn't seem that illogical that he didn't tell anyone he was alive, not even his closest friends. When things cooled down, he probably thought it was the right time to tell them, I don't know.

[TeamCanada]

Originally Posted by Impavido

(Films - Themes + racial stereotypes)*Explosions + hot chick = Michael Bay

Teenage Mutant Ninja Alien Batmans

[Matt the Hat]

Talking about cliches. Was the finale of getting rid of the bomb a nod to the Batman '66 film?

[Juno Beach]

I think you need to see it again. You missed some pretty obvious stuff.

[The Dark Focker Rises]

Originally Posted by JeetKuneDo

I noticed that too. He went to a lot of trouble to make it seem like he died

Bruce Wayne did die, for all intents and purposes. But, in actuality, he had died a long time ago. As Rachel said in "Batman Begins", Batman was his true face...the one the criminals now feared. The real Bruce Wayne never came back to Gotham. At the end of the film, he has a clean slate. The public persona of Bruce Wayne is dead, the one he had to pretend to be so he could keep being Batman. At the end of "Rises", he has new life. As Alfred said, there was nothing left for him in Gotham. He'd saved it repeatedly, and he found his heir apparent.

What I find fascinating is when people don't like a movie, then claim it doesn't make sense or there are plot holes. Just because you don't like it,
doesn't mean there are plot gaps.

[TeamCanada]

Originally Posted by The Dark Focker Rises

Bruce Wayne did die, for all intents and purposes. But, in actuality, he had died a long time ago. As Rachel said in "Batman Begins", Batman was his true face...the one the criminals now feared. The real Bruce Wayne never came back to Gotham. At the end of the film, he has a clean slate. The public persona of Bruce Wayne is dead, the one he had to pretend to be so he could keep being Batman. At the end of "Rises", he has new life. As Alfred said, there was nothing left for him in Gotham. He'd saved it repeatedly, and he found his heir apparent.

What I find fascinating is when people don't like a movie, then claim it doesn't make sense or there are plot holes. Just because you don't like it,
doesn't mean there are plot gaps.

With all due respect, this should be obvious to most TDK trilogy viewers yes? Nolan went all-in giving the story of Batman as Bruce, not Bruce as Batman.

Nearly every scene with Bruce in public is a joke- swimming in the restaurant, kicking everyone out of his house, acting like a doofus at the Lambo car block/crash, being a weirdo at the charity event... Bruce thinks Bruce Wayne is silly.

It makes his finale scene with Alfred all the better.

[The Dark Focker Rises]

Originally Posted by TeamCanada

With all due respect, this should be obvious to most TDK trilogy viewers yes? Nolan went all-in giving the story of Batman as Bruce, not Bruce as Batman.
This makes his finale scene with Alfred all the better.

Yes, it should be obvious to anyone who has watched the films.

However, there are people who claim Nolan is pushing a fascist agenda, or displaying Nazi sympathies, or that Bruce Wayne is some sort of Reaganite reactionary who never lifts a finger to help the poor. When you have people this stupid commenting on a film they don't understand or appreciate, you can never assume how many people do understand it.

Kudos to you!

[Mr. Macphisto]

Nolan's Batman is very much about Bruce Wayne (the real Wayne, not public Wayne) dealing with the hopefully temporary burden of Batman. The reason why the scene in Begins with Wayne kicking out his guests stings is precisely because it's a blow to Bruce Wayne, not Batman. Despite what Rachel or Alfred say, we never really see him 'lost inside this monster'. Hell, he's only active for 8-9 months. This Batman was a temp gig, just a logical symbol to rid Gotham of organized crime and inspire others, etc, etc. This isn't the haunted knight of the comics or even the Burton series, but it's an interesting new approach nevertheless. Super-Bat, if you like. I liked it.

[Smalley]

Originally Posted by Monsieur Red

Ra's al Ghul operated in secret. I got the impression that Bane's "League of Shadows" was out in the open and a well known threat. Hell, the CIA knew about Bane's exploits.

No offense, but of course the CIA knew it in TDKR, they're an intelligence agency. Why should we assume that Alfred knowing would automatically follow the fact of the CIA knowing, did he used to be one of their agents?

[The Dark Focker Rises]

Originally Posted by Mr. Macphisto

Nolan's Batman is very much about Bruce Wayne (the real Wayne, not public Wayne) dealing with the hopefully temporary burden of Batman. The reason why the scene in Begins with Wayne kicking out his guests stings is precisely because it's a blow to Bruce Wayne, not Batman. Despite what Rachel or Alfred say, we never really see him 'lost inside this monster'. Hell, he's only active for 8-9 months. This Batman was a temp gig, just a logical symbol to rid Gotham of organized crime and inspire others, etc, etc. This isn't the haunted knight of the comics or even the Burton series, but it's an interesting new approach nevertheless. Super-Bat, if you like. I liked it.

Bruce creates Batman as means to restore Gotham to what he perceives was its former greatness. And to do that, in "Begins", starts with eliminating the organized crime element. That's why he chooses the bat, a creature he fears and he hopes to use to instill fear in his enemies.
I think it's clear he would have maintained the character for as long as possible until he felt he had nothing more to give Gotham. In "Rises", given his age and mindset, we see the final thing Batman can do for the city.

Once Gotham allowed Harvey Dent, a man who Batman originally thinks is as honest and incorruptible as he is, to achieve elected office, Batman sees a replacement for him from within the system. Remember, Batman has always worked outside the system in order to reform the system. He opposes the anarchy, the "flush the whole system" approach, of The Joker. Once Dent is destroyed, and commits his crimes, Batman loses that out. In "Rises", he meets Blake, and has again found someone who can take over for him. Still, it's pretty clear that Bruce leaves the role of Batman with a clear conscience. The city has twice rejected mass murdering psychopaths, and in the second case rejected the allure of communist revolution. Clearly, the burden of carrying the crimes for Dent, as well as the physical toll of the role, caused him great spiritual and physical pain.

At the end, Bruce realized a younger man was needed for the role, and Blake is that man.

[Monsieur Red]

Originally Posted by Smalley

No offense, but of course the CIA knew it in TDKR, they're an intelligence agency. Why should we assume that Alfred knowing would automatically follow the fact of the CIA knowing, did he used to be one of their agents?

Because Alfred used the computer in the Batcave after Bruce asked him to "keep digging." I know that a lot of people like to think that Bale's Batman isn't intelligent but it's pretty obvious that he's got access to special intelligence files and information just like the comic book incarnation.

[Duder]

Originally Posted by Monsieur Red

Because Alfred used the computer in the Batcave after Bruce asked him to "keep digging." I know that a lot of people like to think that Bale's Batman isn't intelligent but it's pretty obvious that he's got access to special intelligence files and information just like the comic book incarnation.

Then why does he repeatedly ask Catwoman to do all the detective work for him in this movie? Batman doesn't solve a damn thing. It's Catwoman, Alfred, Gordon and JGL that did all the intelligence gathering. Batman shows up to get chased or brawl someone.

I've seen many people complain about those who want to see Superman do some punching, but where are these complainers in regards to Batman? Why is it different?

[The Dark Focker Rises]

Originally Posted by Duder

Then why does he repeatedly ask Catwoman to do all the detective work for him in this movie? Batman doesn't solve a damn thing. It's Catwoman, Alfred, Gordon and JGL that did all the intelligence gathering. Batman shows up to get chased or brawl someone.

I don't think you're giving Bruce/Batman near enough credit.

Bruce/Batman uncovers who Selina is. He discovers she is working with Daggett ("You're in deep with the wrong people"). Bruce discovers she stole his prints. Bruce discovers the clean slate program. Bruce discovers that is what Selina is after. Bruce surmises that Daggett brought Bane to Gotham. It is true that Alfred tells Bruce that Bane did some work for Daggett in Africa, but obviously Bruce could have learned this himself.

The part about using Selina was a test of Selina, to see which way she would choose to go. Throughout every interaction, following the time she steals his car, Bruce is trying to decide if she is someone he can trust ("There's more to you than that."). Clearly, Bruce knows Bane is setting up operations in the sewers, as that is where Gordon was shot. Bruce doesn't get completely fooled when Selina sells him out to Bane, just disappointed ("You just made a serious mistake"). The reason for this statement is because Bruce is perfectly willing to believe Bane is going to kill him, and by selling out Batman, Selina sold out the only thing that stood between Bane and the destruction of Gotham, and her. Though he does not know Bane's plan at the time, since Bane is a member of the League of Shadows, and they tried to destroy Gotham in "Begins", Bruce can guess they're up to no-good. And you see it immediately in Selina's face, like "what the **** did I just do?" She knows she screwed up, and Bruce realizes this too. Which is why he gives her a second chance, and has his faith rewarded.

Bruce Wayne/Batman in Nolan's universe is not the super sleuth he can be portrayed in the comics. He's more the CEO type, allowing others to handle the day-to-day mundane things...all the while knowing the basics of what's going on. He's the idea man, he lets others worry about the details. He gets let down with the first Bane encounter, as he has no way to use his environment or to retreat, he is out of practice, and he gets the crap beaten out of him because of it.

I've seen many people complain about those who want to see Superman do some punching, but where are these complainers in regards to Batman? Why is it different?

I'm curious what this means. Can you please clarify.

[Duder]

Originally Posted by The Dark Focker Rises

I'm curious what this means. Can you please clarify.

It's a question seeking clarification so I don't know how to make it more clear. I've seen numerous people think it's ridiculous for someone to want to see Superman punch stuff. Usually Superman Returns defenders. I only found out about this online. I didn't know it was a thing until it became a meme. I'm wondering why they wouldn't want that since it would be A. Awesome. B. Something he does all the time in the comics/cartoons and B. I have no doubt those same people think it's great when Batman does it.

BTW, if this is Randy again, please don't bother responding. I'm sick of talking to you.

[metropolis]

Originally Posted by The Dark Focker Rises

[...] Bruce/Batman uncovers who Selina is. He discovers she is working with Daggett ("You're in deep with the wrong people"). [...]

Yes and there's actually something you can call an 'investigation'. In many movies today, the protagonists just google their way out of problems.

[TeamCanada]

He quit being Batman but he also quit being Bruce Wayne.

[Mike L.]

Speaking of cliches, I would think that after 2 movies where the villain busts out all the guys from jail that the writers could of come up with something new for the villain to do.