[Atomic Cow]

Originally Posted by SpasticNed

I do, I for one care a great deal about wildlife. I think 'choosing to live side-by-side with grizzlies' is just about as certain to end in tragedy as 'choosing to play in traffic' is, and most people even with a cursory knowledge of the animals are well aware of this.

It's not like Gorillas in the Mist where people may think gorillas are these gigantic and terrifying creatures and then through the incredible dedication of someone you get to see them as the gentle and noble creatures they are and start protecting them. These are grizzly bears. They are gigantic and terrifying creatures that are terribly dangerous. He showed that they can become acclimated to his presence, which is a bad thing. We do not want wild bears acclimated to human presences, they are too dangerous to be close to people. So I don't exactly put him in the same category as a naturalist who's doing what's needed to save bears. From what I can tell, the greatest 'discovery' he made is that 'grizzlies are indeed insanely dangerous to be around, take precautions at all times or risk death', which everybody with any sense already knows.

Kind of like 'don't play in traffic'.

People climb into toll booths every day many not protected by much more than a safety cone which I suppose should end in tragedy by that logic. A ranger who had met Treadwell and even at times had his share of annoyances, defended him in relation to the film later makes a strong point. No one had ever been killed by a bear at Katmai in its 90 year history and many other campers have and still camp right in the grizzly maze same as him all year long in spite of the impression the film leaves that he's the only fool out there. In an environment where zero people have been killed why should Treadwell be considered playing a game of Russian Roulette.
Hindsight makes grizzly experts of us all.

[Master King Sexington]

Spastic, you keep neglecting that he managed to do this for 13 summers. He lived side by side with the bears for 13 years. We see footage of him walking along side them, of them coming right up to him and not attacking. You even see footage of him asserting dominance when one got aggressive and it submitting and walking off. You also neglect the incredible footage he managed to get that is unlike any ever taken because he put his life on the line. He did this without guns or protection of any sort. Naive, stupid, reckless, it's all up for debate. What isn't is that he did something that's incredible and unfathomable. He lived 13 years along side the most dangerous bears around. You even site instances where these bears kill without warning and he did this for 13 years. That is not luck, it isn't a fluke, and the footage proved he had some inkling as to what he was doing.

He is more akin to a mountain climber than someone playing in traffic and comparing them is reductive and dismissive. Yes, it was dangerous. He knew that and so do we. Yeah, he dies because of it, but his death is surrounded in circumstances that show that he really just stayed too long. All of his bears went into hibernation and the one that killed him came from further inland in search of food. Had he left earlier, he'd still be out there.

13 years, man.

[Methuselah]

Originally Posted by Master King Sexington

Spastic, you keep neglecting that he managed to do this for 13 summers. He lived side by side with the bears for 13 years. We see footage of him walking along side them, of them coming right up to him and not attacking. You even see footage of him asserting dominance when one got aggressive and it submitting and walking off. You also neglect the incredible footage he managed to get that is unlike any ever taken because he put his life on the line. He did this without guns or protection of any sort. Naive, stupid, reckless, it's all up for debate. What isn't is that he did something that's incredible and unfathomable. He lived 13 years along side the most dangerous bears around. You even site instances where these bears kill without warning and he did this for 13 years. That is not luck, it isn't a fluke, and the footage proved he had some inkling as to what he was doing.

He is more akin to a mountain climber than someone playing in traffic and comparing them is reductive and dismissive. Yes, it was dangerous. He knew that and so do we. Yeah, he dies because of it, but his death is surrounded in circumstances that show that he really just stayed too long. All of his bears went into hibernation and the one that killed him came from further inland in search of food. Had he left earlier, he'd still be out there.

13 years, man.

That's pretty incredible

[YARN]

Originally Posted by Master King Sexington

Spastic, you keep neglecting that he managed to do this for 13 summers. He lived side by side with the bears for 13 years. We see footage of him walking along side them, of them coming right up to him and not attacking. You even see footage of him asserting dominance when one got aggressive and it submitting and walking off. You also neglect the incredible footage he managed to get that is unlike any ever taken because he put his life on the line. He did this without guns or protection of any sort. Naive, stupid, reckless, it's all up for debate. What isn't is that he did something that's incredible and unfathomable. He lived 13 years along side the most dangerous bears around. You even site instances where these bears kill without warning and he did this for 13 years. That is not luck, it isn't a fluke, and the footage proved he had some inkling as to what he was doing.

He is more akin to a mountain climber than someone playing in traffic and comparing them is reductive and dismissive. Yes, it was dangerous. He knew that and so do we. Yeah, he dies because of it, but his death is surrounded in circumstances that show that he really just stayed too long. All of his bears went into hibernation and the one that killed him came from further inland in search of food. Had he left earlier, he'd still be out there.

13 years, man.

That's why I love this guy. He was a nut living in his own world, but he did manage to live in another world. He actually said screw reality and succeeded at living in his bear-world where he was an eco-hero, stewarding his bears in the "grizzly maze."

He's a real-life Don Quixote. Herzog knows this, which is why he plays it for tragedy and comedy. This is one of the funniest documentaries I've ever seen.

[Impavido]

The most telling part of the film is when Treadwell breaks down upon finding the corpse of a juvenile bear that was likely killed by a male. It was one of the few times a crack showed in an idyllic perception of nature. Like a lot of people we all probably know, some have a bizarre pseudo-religious desire to put nature on a pedestal as an example of peace and harmony.

Nature is not peace nor harmony. She will chew you up, digest you, and **** you out; not even remembering. **** nature, it's cold, scary, and indifferent.

[Hello Heino]

Originally Posted by Impavido

The most telling part of the film is when Treadwell breaks down upon finding the corpse of a juvenile bear that was likely killed by a male. It was one of the few times a crack showed in an idyllic perception of nature. Like a lot of people we all probably know, some have a bizarre pseudo-religious desire to put nature on a pedestal as an example of peace and harmony.

Nature is not peace nor harmony. She will chew you up, digest you, and **** you out; not even remembering. **** nature, it's cold, scary, and indifferent.

Treadwell called his brown bear pals a bunch of "party animals" on Letterman in 2001, so yes, he was at the very least projecting like a child might. I would also have some qualms about anyone calling him an expert on bears when the real experts considered him to be out of his depth and intruding into a realm in which he did not belong. This last part is my major gripe with Treadwell; the bears should be left alone, period. I have a problem with amateurs poking their prodding beaks into the private parts of nature.

[Impavido]

Originally Posted by Hello Heino

Treadwell called his brown bear pals a bunch of "party animals" on Letterman in 2001, so yes, he was at the very least projecting like a child might. I would also have some qualms about anyone calling him an expert on bears when the real experts considered him to be out of his depth and intruding into a realm in which he did not belong. This last part is my major gripe with Treadwell; the bears should be left alone, period. I have a problem with amateurs poking their prodding beaks into the private parts of nature.

I'm not denying that Treadwell got some stunning footage...but yea, I agree with you. Leave such photography to the National Geographic-caliber professionals.

[Atomic Cow]

I don't know how to do this without sounding like I'm arguing with Heino. But Treadwell was considered even by rangers who were at times annoyed with him, to be up there with and higher than the best of experts. Its like disparagingly referring to an Olympic athlete as an amateur. The only quality that makes them different from a pro or their level of play is they aren't payed. The root of amateur is "Love". They do what they do for the love of it. Not for the money. And you should take me seriously because I picked up that bit of wisdom from a movie about golf.

[radioman970]

Yep, 13 summers. And he was out there with them. Say what you want, but that is damn amazing. He just screwed up at the end and stayed too long. I'm sure that crossed his mind as soon as the one that got him struck.

He did have an interesting personality. People want to call him a closet gay or a hippie or something. I don't know what it is. Jack Hannah comes off like a complete goof. But he works with some dangerous **** too and he's still around.

Just an extra note: I have a wonderful set of 50+ episodes of Wild Kingdom (most out of print now) which I adore watching. (they have the diane Fosse episodes, and those are marvelous!) Looking at the guys on there (Marlon Perkins/Jim Fowler) and what they did it's amazing they weren't killed by some of the creatures they dealt with. The last one I watched, Perkins was handling some feisty tiger cubs. I mean, those have extremely sharp claws and teeth. Anyway, he brought one very close to his face as he was trying to sack them (for transport to a better wild place to be set free). That fella didn't want to be sacked. They were laughing about it, but hell he could have lost his nose to that thing! But Perkins was quite a character himself.

[Atomic Cow]

Originally Posted by Impavido

The most telling part of the film is when Treadwell breaks down upon finding the corpse of a juvenile bear that was likely killed by a male. It was one of the few times a crack showed in an idyllic perception of nature. Like a lot of people we all probably know, some have a bizarre pseudo-religious desire to put nature on a pedestal as an example of peace and harmony.

Nature is not peace nor harmony. She will chew you up, digest you, and **** you out; not even remembering. **** nature, it's cold, scary, and indifferent.

Yes. That's the one of the few times in the film.

But another ranger will recount visiting Treadwell to report a cub had died and I think mauled just 100 feet from his camp. It had porcupine quills in its snout. His remark was, "Well that's just nature." Which suggests he had a notion that nature could be brutal and violent. He seemed very cognizant these bears could kill him. So was he really as naive and romantic as all that? I think he knew he could end up as the punchline do bears **** Timothy Treadwell in the woods?

[Hello Heino]

Originally Posted by Atomic Cow

I don't know how to do this without sounding like I'm arguing with Heino. But Treadwell was considered even by rangers who were at times annoyed with him, to be up there with and higher than the best of experts. Its like disparagingly referring to an Olympic athlete as an amateur. The only quality that makes them different from a pro or their level of play is they aren't payed. The root of amateur is "Love". They do what they do for the love of it. Not for the money. And you should take me seriously because I picked up that bit of wisdom from a movie about golf.

That sounds great on paper, but when Treadwell calls himself "one of them," he is delusional. I recall that he also calls himself their master in the next breath. His interaction with and interpretation of the bears is not consistent with reality. I think that is pretty clear, whether you dig his whole scramble-brained bad actor bear trip or not, and as Herr Imp pointed out, Treadwell was living in a idealized, naive fantasy version of nature and it did not serve him well - or the bears. I would still find him a fool if he was still up there with his party pals. You can admire his intrepid nature, but I do not, at least not in the context of fucking around in the bears' habitat. Heino was not one of the people crapping on Into the Wild's McCandless. (Well, he was kind of an idiot as well, but he wasn't playing with bears.)

I get what you and others are saying and it is not something that bothers me to the extent of wanting to go round and round with it. My ground zero feeling is that he should not have been up there to the extent that he was.
_____________________

[Atomic Cow]

That's fair enough. I don't want to do a round on it either. Anyone who decides he is going to go live in a tent for months at a time has to be a little touched. The rangers didn't much approve of him chasing off other cinematographers and tourist boats.

You should join the McCandless bashing. He is the main reason I think Treadwell gets a bum wrap. There was an interview with some grizzled old indian tells the story of this dumb white kid and he's totally disgusted with how stupid he was.
Now that was a guy who had a naive idyllic view of nature and entered into Alaska with nothing to clothe him but romantic notions. He didn't plan. He didn't prepare. He lasted four months. And somehow Treadwell is a naive idealist and McCandless is a folk hero. Maybe the dumbest thing is he came to live in the Alaskan Wilderness and ended up living in a van down by the river and apparently never explored the area as he would have survived if he just went to an easy crossing point half mile up the river. But I mostly enjoy watching Lilly go off on him.

[Impavido]

Originally Posted by Atomic Cow

Yes. That's the one of the few times in the film.

But another ranger will recount visiting Treadwell to report a cub had died and I think mauled just 100 feet from his camp. It had porcupine quills in its snout. His remark was, "Well that's just nature." Which suggests he had a notion that nature could be brutal and violent. He seemed very cognizant these bears could kill him. So was he really as naive and romantic as all that? I think he knew he could end up as the punchline do bears **** Timothy Treadwell in the woods?

It's hard to say. He clearly knew they were dangerous. If anything, the bears were just a replacement addiction for his prior dependencies. Even if he did see past the idyllic into reality, I think his behavior is also pretty consistent with a person facing an addiction.

[Methuselah]

I'd say that he died like he lived.

Dangerously

[billwh2]

I'm not much for documentaries, but this was recommended to me back when it first came out. I was absolutely fascinated by the mind of Timothy Treadwell. You know, when they use the phrase "think outside of the box", this guy's mind was WAY out of the box!

I don't draw any judgement about what he did. I don't see any "right" or "wrong" here. He was doing what he felt he needed to do; was born to do, and was willing to sacrifice his life in order to do.

So how did I like the movie? -

8/10

[Impavido]

Originally Posted by billwh2

--and was willing to sacrifice his life in order to do.

I'n not making some cheap moral stance here, and I'm not trying to be an ass...

--but read that phrase and think again about what happened. Treadwell became so over-confident and deluded, that he got that girl--one he obviously cared for--also killed. Treadwell made his own decisions; he reaped the rewards of beautiful video and a self-defining purpose in life, and ended up paying with his life when he knew how dangerous those animals could be.

My heart doesn't break for Treadwell, not out of callousness, but because he knew the risks and played the game. What DOES break my heart is how Treadwell undoubtedly knew and understood before his death that he got that girl killed. To have his last moments filled with an overpowering sense of guilt over his poor decisions...that hurts. I could face my own death with a modicum of composure, but if I knew I took someone I cared about to their death, that would break me. I couldn't take that.

Poor girl. Poor Treadwell for seeing his poor decisions come full circle on someone who didn't deserve it....

[billwh2]

Originally Posted by Impavido

I'n not making some cheap moral stance here, and I'm not trying to be an ass...

--but read that phrase and think again about what happened. Treadwell became so over-confident and deluded, that he got that girl--one he obviously cared for--also killed. Treadwell made his own decisions; he reaped the rewards of beautiful video and a self-defining purpose in life, and ended up paying with his life when he knew how dangerous those animals could be.

My heart doesn't break for Treadwell, not out of callousness, but because he knew the risks and played the game. What DOES break my heart is how Treadwell undoubtedly knew and understood before his death that he got that girl killed. To have his last moments filled with an overpowering sense of guilt over his poor decisions...that hurts. I could face my own death with a modicum of composure, but if I knew I took someone I cared about to their death, that would break me. I couldn't take that.

Poor girl. Poor Treadwell for seeing his poor decisions come full circle on someone who didn't deserve it....

How we know that she wasn't the same way as him? Maybe she was into this whole bear thing like he was. Maybe her mind was similar to his (hard to believe, though!). Anyway, she went along with him, and as far as I'm concerned, she got what was coming to her. If she was an adult and of sound mind? then she reaped what she sowed. Which reminds me of one of my favorite mottos :

"''tis better to be alone than to be in bad company."

[Master King Sexington]

Originally Posted by Impavido

I'n not making some cheap moral stance here, and I'm not trying to be an ass...

--but read that phrase and think again about what happened. Treadwell became so over-confident and deluded, that he got that girl--one he obviously cared for--also killed. Treadwell made his own decisions; he reaped the rewards of beautiful video and a self-defining purpose in life, and ended up paying with his life when he knew how dangerous those animals could be.

My heart doesn't break for Treadwell, not out of callousness, but because he knew the risks and played the game. What DOES break my heart is how Treadwell undoubtedly knew and understood before his death that he got that girl killed. To have his last moments filled with an overpowering sense of guilt over his poor decisions...that hurts. I could face my own death with a modicum of composure, but if I knew I took someone I cared about to their death, that would break me. I couldn't take that.

Poor girl. Poor Treadwell for seeing his poor decisions come full circle on someone who didn't deserve it....

While I'm not in necessary agreement about him "sacrificing himself", as I don't think it's as selfless as that, I do find this argument (and I've run into it a lot in regards to Treadwell and this film) completely frustrating. It's absolutely condescending to this girl to blame Treadwell for her death. She was a grown woman that made the conscious decision to go with him. If my girlfriend said "Hey, wanna go live with grizzly bears", I believe I'd decline. She did not. That was her choice. She was a member of the same bear society as well. She was not some poor, innocent child he dragged into the woods and got killed.

I blame both of their delusions for getting them killed, and it is sad.

But to hold Treadwell responsible for "killing her" as many do and you imply is to forget that people have culpability for their own actions. Including girlfriends.

[Impavido]

Originally Posted by Master King Sexington

She was not some poor, innocent child he dragged into the woods and got killed.

I blame both of their delusions for getting them killed, and it is sad.

But to hold Treadwell responsible for "killing her" as many do and you imply is to forget that people have culpability for their own actions. Including girlfriends.

You've got a basis for what you are saying, but I think she made the mistake of feeling safe with Treadwell's "professional" experience.

Also, I'm speaking half-subjectively; that is exactly how I would have felt in that situation if I were Treadwell.

[Master King Sexington]

Originally Posted by Impavido

You've got a basis for what you are saying, but I think she made the mistake of feeling safe with Treadwell's "professional" experience.

Also, I'm speaking half-subjectively; that is exactly how I would have felt in that situation if I were Treadwell.

Sure, and why shouldn't she? He'd been doing it 13 years. People give experience as a reason to take a risk frequently. Doesn't mean things can't go wrong and this time they did.

But yeah, if I were Treadwell and lived and she didn't, I would feel enormously guilty. That shows that you're not a psychopath. But as a third party, I must advocate that he's not responsible for her death. She took the same risk and it's tragic what happened. But I don't think she was even the first girl he took up there.

[YARN]

Originally Posted by Master King Sexington

But to hold Treadwell responsible for "killing her" as many do and you imply is to forget that people have culpability for their own actions. Including girlfriends.

The outrage on this one does smack a bit of chauvinism. I doubt people would be quite as outraged if it was a wanna-be mountain man "bro" that got munched on that day.

[Master King Sexington]

Originally Posted by YARN

The outrage on this one does smack a bit of chauvinism. I doubt people would be quite as outraged if it was a wanna-be mountain man "bro" that got munched on that day.

Oh absolutely. I made the mistake of reading through the netflix comments on the film and the general attitude in the negative reviews were "I'm glad that ******* got killed. Too bad he had to get his poor girlfriend killed in the process". Upsetting on multiple levels.

[neumdaddy]

It's been a while, but there were a few sequences where Herzog was speaking to acquaintances, etc., that were really forced and kinda took some of the energy out of those scenes. The film was at its best with Herzog's musings over Treadwell's footage (no shock there).

[YARN]

Originally Posted by neumdaddy

It's been a while, but there were a few sequences where Herzog was speaking to acquaintances, etc., that were really forced and kinda took some of the energy out of those scenes. The film was at its best with Herzog's musings over Treadwell's footage (no shock there).

Right, the best parts of the documentary are the parts he didn't film. I guess give him props for editing though.

[Bonehead]

Originally Posted by neumdaddy

It's been a while, but there were a few sequences where Herzog was speaking to acquaintances, etc., that were really forced and kinda took some of the energy out of those scenes. The film was at its best with Herzog's musings over Treadwell's footage (no shock there).

I agree, I think many of the scripted personal interaction scenes with Treadwell's friends and family were entirely unnecessary in the grand scheme of the film, but it is a very traditional approach to a documentary of this nature, and there may have been many contractual caveats involved using certain people that may sort of explain why the scenes themselves are in the film at all

[count_of_monte_cristo]

Some of the most powerful scenes to me where the ones where Treadwell found the dead fox, the dead bear, and when he was hovering his hand over the bear poo.....his need to connect with these animals and his unrelenting love for them despite the fact that their deaths were just nature taking its course, the fact that he cried like a relative of his had died over an animal like this.... was one of the most heartbreaking things ive ever seen.


also, it was great seeing him talk in his high-pitched happy voice then utter the F-word a bunch of times when the fox stole his hat, i was busting up laughing..

[YARN]

Originally Posted by count_of_monte_cristo

Some of the most powerful scenes to me where the ones where Treadwell found the dead fox, the dead bear, and when he was hovering his hand over the bear poo.....his need to connect with these animals and his unrelenting love for them despite the fact that their deaths were just nature taking its course, the fact that he cried like a relative of his had died over an animal like this.... was one of the most heartbreaking things ive ever seen.

Is it irrational? Have you ever felt deep emotion after a family pet dies or a relative dies? Nothing is more natural than the death of a pet or a person, and yet people cry as if there has been a rip in the fabric of space-time when this happens. Animals have also been shown to be emotionally affected when off-spring and mates die, a strange response for creatures that are allegedly all natural and coldly bloody in tooth in claw, sitting in boredom just looking for food, as Herzog asserts.

A Martian would see all our emotional connection as arbitrary and meaningless, but to be human is to seek out meaningful arrangements of life patterns. Treadwell was no different than the rest of us in this regard. If it is in your world and you relate to it and it dies, it effects you. Treadwell entered another world and that world affected him. You have no more right to tell him it's just empty nature, than I have to tell you to get over it when your mom dies.

[count_of_monte_cristo]

I think you mightve misinterpreted what i wrote, i was in no way trying to insinuate he was crying over nothing, i was trying to say what you said in your post.... Only i didnt word it as fancy as you did haha i was just saying his deep emotional connect was powerful to me

[YARN]

Originally Posted by count_of_monte_cristo

I think you mightve misinterpreted what i wrote, i was in no way trying to insinuate he was crying over nothing, i was trying to say what you said in your post.... Only i didnt word it as fancy as you did haha i was just saying his deep emotional connect was powerful to me

Sorry, that post was more aimed at Impavido and Herzog than you.

[count_of_monte_cristo]

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